Can God Create a Debate More Shitty Than Any Debate He Could Create?
There is a scene in Ingmar Bergman's Wild Strawberries where two young men argue and eventually come to blows over a disagreement on whether God exists. After they scuff themselves up and settle down, their beautiful young friend Sara ironically asks the two, "So...did you decide if God exists?".
This quote, besides making me seem quite smart by referencing Bergman, came to my mind after witnessing one of the more distressing spectacles in my young life. It was a debate at the University of Minnesota on the existence of God coordinated by the Campus Atheists and Secular Humanists (or CASH-get the money, dolla-dolla bill ya'll). The two debatees, atheist Dan Barker from the Americans for Freedom From Religion and young evangelical radio host Todd Friel, elicited whoops, hollers, laughs and cheers from a suprisingly large crowd. No converts to either side. Just lots of whoopin' and hollerin'.
Dan Barker
Barker, a former evangelical minister who had the advantage in the debate of knowing the Bible quite well, was a quiet, articulate but ultimately helpless little man who also had the disadvantage of mentioning a CD he recorded of "free-thought songs". Immediately embarassed this man was on my side, I momentairly converted to Seventh-day Adventist. But thankfully I came to my senses, and decided any harm done by "God-less America"was undone quickly by his opponent.
Todd Friel
Freakishly tall (I was sitting high up in the auditorium, but I would guess Friel is about 8'6/8'7.) and dressed with a blue polo shirt tucked into size 68 black khakis, Todd Friel looks a little like a bad 80s stand-up comic, which I was not suprised to find out he was .
He still in many ways is a comic whether he admits it or not; indeed, his apparently Ionescoian sense of absurdist humor was evidenced throughout the whole "debate". Host of the ultra-conservative Christian radio show 'The Way of the Master', a AM dial companion to the Kirk Cameron television show in which Kirk Cameron and a suspiciously mustachioed Australian gentleman bother people on the street and tell them they are going to hell. This entirely disagreeable enterprise of interupting people's lives in public to tell them they are going to burn eternally is sometimes known as "saving" people, or 'spreading the good news.'
Kirk Cameron
Cameron, who sometimes co-hosts Friel's show as Friel sometimes appears on the television 'WOTM', is absolutely on another planet now. And needless to say, Boner doesn't visit there much anymore. Star of the highly successfully hilarious "Left Behind" movies, Kirk Cameron's boy next door good looks have slightly morphed into a soulless gaze and robotic smile.
One show I listened to with Cameron co-hosting showed the former child-actor, though all actors are usually at some point former children, to be a strangely vacous and bland man who can talk a lot of brimstoned shit. An atheist caller tried to engage Cameron in a kind-spirited exchange of chit-chat which Cameron uncomfortably obliged with all-too fake niceities before diving right into the Jesus talk. Cameron is a goner. A loon. No hope of reaching him again. He's dead.
Quite alive in another sense, and as tall as a gigantic freaking white man, Friel is more blunt and bold under the 'I'm a cool guy too, kids!' guise. Where Cameron is 'oh shucks' and 'golly-gee', Friel will find a way to blame Hurricane Katrina on homosexuality, AND use the word 'dude'! But Friel's personality is still very much bad 80s comedian, or perhaps the super lame camp counselor with a dark side who seems like a fun, goofy young guy, but didn't mind beating you senseless behind the canoe shelter after he found out you ate all the smores at the weenie roast.
Even before the debate started, it became clear where the audience largely stood. Expecting a mostly college crowd, Friel and other local right-wing talk show hosts announced the debate on the radio the day before, urging evangelicals and devotees of ambiguous moral values to show up and show their support for their lanky representative (the one not hanging on the tree).
Salt of the Earth
And show up they did! See the ignorant and Fat, white, dumb and ugly men and women bring their screaming babies and 12 children for a night of fun! Rarely have so many Chilli Cheese Fritos-stained hands clapped for a awkwardly stated and haggardly argued form of the Ontological argument! Rarely has Patrick been so depressed!
Oh it was a great debate. Did I mention that? Oh that's right because it wasn't.
Dan Barker, soldier for reason and logic he is, mentioned philosopher Daniel Dennett current work in the wonderful "Breaking the Spell"(he proposes the concept of God or gods are evolutionary viruses we have yet to throw off) and other arcane and difficult propisitions about God before realizing that Friel wasn't there to split theological hairs. It then became a tennis match of clever one-liners and jabs. Friel started each of his answers with absurd non-arguments and then used his remaining time to urge us sinners to give up our paganism and "faith" in science and embrace the angry and righteous God. All he needed to prove his assertions was the Bible, which is technically the almost pataphysical assertion Christians and other religious people make with their holy books, "The Bible says God exists and the Bible is right because the Bible says God created the Bible". All this was phrased with the irritating skill of a used car salesman: What do I have to do to get you into a Heavenly Kingdom today?
Barker stood his ground and asked point-blank if the righteous and just God who Friel spoke of was justified in killing 3000 people on 9/11. Friel said with a straight-face: "Yes. They deserved it." (Uncomfortable but audible applause from the Christians and gasps from me and every other person with a head on his shoulders).
At every chance, Friel used the 'Watchmaker' argument which I, and everyone else with a head on his shoulders thought was dead. "Evolutionists would see a calf coming out of a mother cow and think it ran into the back of it's mom on accident". "Evolution has no evidence." "Homosexuality will equal death". All of this elicited huge amounts of cheering from the crowd. I honestly almost threw up in rage. And throwing up in rage is not as fun as it sounds.
Arguing over the existence of something that cannot be understood and has no real definition is
silly, but there are several real issues that can benefit from fruitful discussion between atheists and theologians. I studied with Catholic brothers who were Jesuit trained. Brilliant, brilliant men who could quote Aquinas, Nietzsche, and Darwin back and forth. They were believers. They were usually great guys. Fascinating guys. But they were also something a lot more important: intellectually honest. If something could be proved to them-they would believe it. People like Friel and his ilk are dishonest and liars. They will deny facts to remain fit their narrow-minded ideology. They are hateful, cruel and largely insane. Period. In fact, more than period. Menopause.
Retardeds
During the debate I sat next to a friend and a group of kids between 15 and 18 who were obviously part of some teenage Christian group that loved Friel's brand of jolly gloom and doom. They cheered on everything Friel said. They snickered at Barker's arguments without understanding them. They passed around a miniature bible and pointed out verses to each other. Everytime I laughed loudly at Friel's absurdity they scowled at me and whispered. For them, they know, I am going to burn in hell for eternity when I die.
I know the human mind has its limits, but does that make any Goddamn sense?
There is a scene in Ingmar Bergman's Wild Strawberries where two young men argue and eventually come to blows over a disagreement on whether God exists. After they scuff themselves up and settle down, their beautiful young friend Sara ironically asks the two, "So...did you decide if God exists?".
This quote, besides making me seem quite smart by referencing Bergman, came to my mind after witnessing one of the more distressing spectacles in my young life. It was a debate at the University of Minnesota on the existence of God coordinated by the Campus Atheists and Secular Humanists (or CASH-get the money, dolla-dolla bill ya'll). The two debatees, atheist Dan Barker from the Americans for Freedom From Religion and young evangelical radio host Todd Friel, elicited whoops, hollers, laughs and cheers from a suprisingly large crowd. No converts to either side. Just lots of whoopin' and hollerin'.
Dan Barker
Barker, a former evangelical minister who had the advantage in the debate of knowing the Bible quite well, was a quiet, articulate but ultimately helpless little man who also had the disadvantage of mentioning a CD he recorded of "free-thought songs". Immediately embarassed this man was on my side, I momentairly converted to Seventh-day Adventist. But thankfully I came to my senses, and decided any harm done by "God-less America"was undone quickly by his opponent.
Todd Friel
Freakishly tall (I was sitting high up in the auditorium, but I would guess Friel is about 8'6/8'7.) and dressed with a blue polo shirt tucked into size 68 black khakis, Todd Friel looks a little like a bad 80s stand-up comic, which I was not suprised to find out he was .
He still in many ways is a comic whether he admits it or not; indeed, his apparently Ionescoian sense of absurdist humor was evidenced throughout the whole "debate". Host of the ultra-conservative Christian radio show 'The Way of the Master', a AM dial companion to the Kirk Cameron television show in which Kirk Cameron and a suspiciously mustachioed Australian gentleman bother people on the street and tell them they are going to hell. This entirely disagreeable enterprise of interupting people's lives in public to tell them they are going to burn eternally is sometimes known as "saving" people, or 'spreading the good news.'
Kirk Cameron
Cameron, who sometimes co-hosts Friel's show as Friel sometimes appears on the television 'WOTM', is absolutely on another planet now. And needless to say, Boner doesn't visit there much anymore. Star of the highly successfully hilarious "Left Behind" movies, Kirk Cameron's boy next door good looks have slightly morphed into a soulless gaze and robotic smile.
One show I listened to with Cameron co-hosting showed the former child-actor, though all actors are usually at some point former children, to be a strangely vacous and bland man who can talk a lot of brimstoned shit. An atheist caller tried to engage Cameron in a kind-spirited exchange of chit-chat which Cameron uncomfortably obliged with all-too fake niceities before diving right into the Jesus talk. Cameron is a goner. A loon. No hope of reaching him again. He's dead.
Quite alive in another sense, and as tall as a gigantic freaking white man, Friel is more blunt and bold under the 'I'm a cool guy too, kids!' guise. Where Cameron is 'oh shucks' and 'golly-gee', Friel will find a way to blame Hurricane Katrina on homosexuality, AND use the word 'dude'! But Friel's personality is still very much bad 80s comedian, or perhaps the super lame camp counselor with a dark side who seems like a fun, goofy young guy, but didn't mind beating you senseless behind the canoe shelter after he found out you ate all the smores at the weenie roast.
Even before the debate started, it became clear where the audience largely stood. Expecting a mostly college crowd, Friel and other local right-wing talk show hosts announced the debate on the radio the day before, urging evangelicals and devotees of ambiguous moral values to show up and show their support for their lanky representative (the one not hanging on the tree).
Salt of the Earth
And show up they did! See the ignorant and Fat, white, dumb and ugly men and women bring their screaming babies and 12 children for a night of fun! Rarely have so many Chilli Cheese Fritos-stained hands clapped for a awkwardly stated and haggardly argued form of the Ontological argument! Rarely has Patrick been so depressed!
Oh it was a great debate. Did I mention that? Oh that's right because it wasn't.
Dan Barker, soldier for reason and logic he is, mentioned philosopher Daniel Dennett current work in the wonderful "Breaking the Spell"(he proposes the concept of God or gods are evolutionary viruses we have yet to throw off) and other arcane and difficult propisitions about God before realizing that Friel wasn't there to split theological hairs. It then became a tennis match of clever one-liners and jabs. Friel started each of his answers with absurd non-arguments and then used his remaining time to urge us sinners to give up our paganism and "faith" in science and embrace the angry and righteous God. All he needed to prove his assertions was the Bible, which is technically the almost pataphysical assertion Christians and other religious people make with their holy books, "The Bible says God exists and the Bible is right because the Bible says God created the Bible". All this was phrased with the irritating skill of a used car salesman: What do I have to do to get you into a Heavenly Kingdom today?
Barker stood his ground and asked point-blank if the righteous and just God who Friel spoke of was justified in killing 3000 people on 9/11. Friel said with a straight-face: "Yes. They deserved it." (Uncomfortable but audible applause from the Christians and gasps from me and every other person with a head on his shoulders).
At every chance, Friel used the 'Watchmaker' argument which I, and everyone else with a head on his shoulders thought was dead. "Evolutionists would see a calf coming out of a mother cow and think it ran into the back of it's mom on accident". "Evolution has no evidence." "Homosexuality will equal death". All of this elicited huge amounts of cheering from the crowd. I honestly almost threw up in rage. And throwing up in rage is not as fun as it sounds.
Arguing over the existence of something that cannot be understood and has no real definition is
silly, but there are several real issues that can benefit from fruitful discussion between atheists and theologians. I studied with Catholic brothers who were Jesuit trained. Brilliant, brilliant men who could quote Aquinas, Nietzsche, and Darwin back and forth. They were believers. They were usually great guys. Fascinating guys. But they were also something a lot more important: intellectually honest. If something could be proved to them-they would believe it. People like Friel and his ilk are dishonest and liars. They will deny facts to remain fit their narrow-minded ideology. They are hateful, cruel and largely insane. Period. In fact, more than period. Menopause.
Retardeds
During the debate I sat next to a friend and a group of kids between 15 and 18 who were obviously part of some teenage Christian group that loved Friel's brand of jolly gloom and doom. They cheered on everything Friel said. They snickered at Barker's arguments without understanding them. They passed around a miniature bible and pointed out verses to each other. Everytime I laughed loudly at Friel's absurdity they scowled at me and whispered. For them, they know, I am going to burn in hell for eternity when I die.
I know the human mind has its limits, but does that make any Goddamn sense?
posted by PWS at 12:04 AM
4 Comments:
Good Lord, Patrick, this is great!
So funny...the menopause, the car salesman. You're really on a intellectual roll here, you know it? :)
Interesting stuff too, the whole religious debate. And Christian or not, I definitely hate those Friel types and the youth groups who shoot dirty looks when they should just be nice and polite and not so damn judgmental. Practice what you preach, snobby youth group kids! ;)
Um. Oh yeah...Kurt Cameron. How sad. I always kinda liked Growing Pains.
You should have asked him, Hey, Kirk Cameron...If we have the world sitting right in our hands [excerpt from the Growing Pains theme song], then how, theoretically, can "God" have the world sitting in his hands too??
Then stare at him really thoughtfully, and when he wouldn't answer...You're sister was pretty hot on Full House. Take that, loser!
:)
Happy Wednesday!
~ Ash
I had a similar experience watching 'The Phantom Of The Opera.' "This isn't an entertaining movie!" I wanted to cry, "Stop pointing your camera at those boring things!" I moaned: "the music, such as it is, is insipid and bears little resemblance to anything sensibly considered musical! The dialogue is asinine and the lyrics don't scan!" But it was to no avail. The entire project had already been financed, mounted and was available on home video, to the detriment of my weekend.
I hope that, on some level, you enjoyed experiencing the 21st century American version of a Weimar-era political rally. Sure is neat to live in 'interesting times'!
I think your shovel touched gold when you commented on the Jesuits- that's the real issue, that the people who form crosses with their GWB Whacking Sticks aren't interested. They don't want to see their religion as an accretion of twenty centuries of philosophy, culture, and superstition. They don't want to learn ancient Greek or read apocryphal gospels or consider the rites of the Byzantine empire- it doesn't interest them because they had the extraordinary good fortune to be born in the right country at the right moment in history to follow the divinely-inspired Good News translation of their sacred text. In that sense, it's just good ol' fashioned American-flag-bumper-sticker patriotism, except that in this case the flag sticker is in the shape of a cross.
I guess you found out that the truth hurts!!
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